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Episode 21 30.03.2021
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Can mathematics compose music? Can robots create art that is genuinely good for people? Brazilian mathematician and composer Jonatas Manzolli explores the collision between understanding and interpretation , and why collaboration between art and science may be essential for humanity’s survival. Subscribe for more episodes on how collaboration works across disciplines. Jonatas Manzolli occupies a rare intersection: trained in mathematics, driven by music composition, and committed to building bridges between algorithmic understanding and artistic interpretation. As head of the Interdisciplinary Center for Sound Communication at the University of Campinas in Brazil, he has spent decades pushing students and collaborators to confront a fundamental question , whether the purpose of human endeavor is to understand the world or to live in it. The conversation opens with Manzolli’s formative tension. Studying mathematics and music simultaneously, he found himself caught between two demands: mathematicians wanted him to understand; musicians wanted him to interpret and feel. His PhD in music composition was an attempt to resolve this by emphasizing creation, but the resolution came not as a choice between the two but as a commitment to being an interface , translating between the possibilities of understanding and the necessities of expression. This personal trajectory becomes a lens for examining collaboration itself. Manzolli argues that the most productive collaborations happen when participants bring genuinely different modes of thinking , not just different expertise within the same paradigm. His work with Paul Verschure on robotic systems that interact with human performers illustrates this: the question shifted from “how does the robot talk to the system?” to “how do we produce artifacts that are good for people?” , a move from technical capability to human benefit. The pandemic reshaped Manzolli’s understanding of collaborative practice. Isolated in a small space, experiencing what he calls “the aesthetics of compression,” he began writing musical letters , short scores sent to friends as a form of connection. When 15 dancers responded with movement to a poem he wrote, he used algorithmic composition to merge their movement and voice into something he calls music, even though it contains no traditional notes. The result demonstrates how collaboration can emerge from constraint when participants trust each other enough to respond authentically. On the relationship between art and survival, Manzolli is direct: not all problems can be solved by science alone. Environmental crises have layers, ecological, historical, relational, that require cultural and artistic engagement alongside technical solutions. A future society that eliminates space for art, science, and culture in equal measure will not survive its own intolerance. His proposed change to humanity is the capacity to believe in other people and to become tolerant of others , a deceptively simple formulation that connects mathematical precision with artistic generosity. Part of the Ernst Strüngmann Forum series on Collaboration, produced with the Convergent Science Network.
Tagged as:
algorithmic composition collaboration mathematics music Music Composition Understanding
About the author call_made
Both the triumphs of humanity and its most evil deeds have resulted from collaboration. In a time where humanity is required to aspire to the former and minimize the latter, the question arises of how collaboration arises and why it fails. Surprisingly, this phenomenon, so central to who we are, is not well understood. Hence, a collaborative effort is required to understand collaboration in its full biological, psychological, sociological, cultural, and economic complexity and to translate this understanding into operational impact. This series of podcasts is one step toward achieving these complementary goals. The Collaboration Podcast presents interviews with people who are central orchestrators of collaboration in various domains including business, government, science, art, health, sustainability, and the military. The discussions were conducted by Prof. Dr. Paul F.M.J. Verschure and members of the Program Advisory Committee of the Ernst Strungmann Forum on Collaboration (https://www.esforum.de/forums/ESF32_Collaboration.html) during 2021 and had the goal to sketch a map of opportunities, challenges, and obstacles in human collaboration. The forum took place in May 2022, and now we would like to share this series of interviews with a broader audience. The full report of the Forum will be published in 2023 by MIT Press. The podcast was produced by the Convergent Science Network (https://www.convergentsciencenetwork.org/). Context: The stability of social systems depends critically on realizing sustainable methods of “collaboration,” yet how and by which means collaboration is achieved is not clearly understood; neither are the conditions or processes that lead to its breakdown or failure. Collaboration can be understood as cooperation between agents toward mutually constructed goals. Part of the reason for our lack of understanding is that the phenomenon of collaboration is, by nature, a highly multidisciplinary problem, and effective research into its complexities has been difficult to achieve across the broad range of scientific and technical disciplines involved. The need for a fundamental understanding of collaboration, however, has become increasingly important. Not only does humankind demand answers as it attempts to address critical challenges at multiple scales (e.g., climate change, migration, enhanced automation, social and economic inequality), but ever-increasing technological and economic means of interconnecting people and societies are disrupting long-established, familiar patterns of how we interact. Radical technological changes that are ongoing have the potential to reshape collaboration in ways that are currently hard to predict or influence (e.g., by altering configurations in interaction, information creation, and modes of communication). On one hand, such changes could disrupt hitherto stable forms of collaboration by affecting critical communication channels and traditional roles, as can be observed in the rapidly changing patterns in governance, commerce, and social interaction. Conversely, technology could lead to the emergence of novel, successful forms of collaboration that deviate from traditional “hierarchical” architectures. Evidence of this can be seen in areas as diverse as highly automated manufacturing plants, the open science movement, collaborative software repositories, user-centered services, and the sharing of economy-based modes of organization. Without a fundamental understanding of the mechanisms, processes, and boundary conditions of collaboration, it is not possible to evaluate or predict which of these possible scenarios are sustainable or even plausible. The Forum “How Collaboration Arises and Why it Fails” (May 8–13, 2022, Location: Frankfurt am Main, Germany) Chairs: Andreas Roepstorff and Paul Verschure Program Advisory Committee: Jenna Bednar, Julia R. Lupp, Bhavani R. Rao , Andreas Roepstorff, Ferdinand von Siemens, and Paul Verschure
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